Hybrid Vs. Diesel: A Luxury Sedan Shootout
News out of Europe today suggests that while the Lexus LS600h, which recently went on sale in Europe, is the most expensive production hybrid ever, it isn’t necessarily the choice for a green luxury vehicle.
After a recent comparison test between the aforementioned Lexus, a BMW 745d, and a Mercedes-Benz S420 CDI, findings reveal that the hybrid may not top a diesel when it comes to fuel economy.
(Click on the jump to read how the LS600h faired against its German rivals.)
When the testing was over, Lexus, not surprisingly, came out with the best number for urban fuel economy; 24 mpg for the LS, 19.4 mpg for the 7-Series and 20.3 mpg for the S-Class. However, when autobahn speeds were added to the mix (cruising at a reasonable 111 mph) the LS started to loose its cool. Economy for the Lexus plummeted to 9.6 mpg while Mercedes and BMW took more dips to 14.1 mpg and 15.3 mpg respectively.
Always important truck space was also an issue in the LS600h, losing out on volume to the Germans due to the hybrid's space-eating batteries.
Considering the tests were run at such high speeds, we’re not ready to call the Lexus a pretender yet, but with German diesels headed to the states in ever-increasing numbers, is the case for a big hybrid getting harder to make?
Comments
Patrick from Astoria
The decision has to be based on the driving environment. If one is going to be mostly in an urban commuting situation - especially with the likelihood of severe congestion and lots of stop-and-go - the hybrid is easily the better choice. We're starting to get hybrid taxis here in New York, and being able to run electic-only is very beneficial.
On the open road, it swings the other way hard. Diesels display their traditional advantages in fuel consumption and driving characteristics, while hybrids rarely get to do what they're really designed to do with any significance (outside of any advatages in smaller engine sizes and attention to rolling resistance and airflow management, which isn't any better than the normal car with the Lexus).
Personally, I'll side with the diesel folks; I prefer riding my bicycle in city traffic anyway.
Rip
My guess is that people paying over $100K are doing this for the "image" of caring about economy. I've got friends who own big sedans and use them for those times they are going out in one vehicle with some company or for long trips.
Almost all have purchased a smaller vehicle like a prius or civic for around town, shopping, errands, etc. None would consider the hybrid but all would consider the diesel.
Steve
... How about diesel hybrids? When are we going to start seeing those?
chuck goolsbee
A Diesel-Electric drive makes the most sense of all for a Hybrid vehicle - IF Fuel Economy is the design goal. What people seem to forget all the time is that fuel economy was NOT the design goal of the current crop of hybrid cars, merely a beneficial side effect. The primary design goal was to reduce emissions to meet California's milestones & mandates for the ultimate goal of a zero-emissions car.
I seem to recall VW was breaking MPG records with a small Diesel-electric hybrid over 20 years ago. They managed to get something like 180 MPG or the like back in 1986 or so.
--chuck
http://chuck.goolsbee.org
Ducati Minor
The Lexus LS600h is an effort to create a greener premium-market large sedan. The factors dropped out from the comparo, however, are reliability (always missing in the Euro press for obvious reasons), ergonomics (um...iDrive?), and emissions. Just as Americans are crying over fuel economy, there is a long debate in the EU about emissions.
The problems with a diesel-electric (not a new concept at all) would be cost and weight. For all the complaints about petrol-electrics, diesel engines still weigh and cost more than their petrol counterparts. I am surprised there haven't been any promising concepts yet. I disagree with Patrick about hybrid achievement: my friend's two-year-old Prius has, minimum, averaged in the mid-forties despite his lead foot.
Michael
Diesel hybrids are economically prohibitive. Diesel engine adds a few thousands dollars to the cost of the car. Hybrid is much more expensive then that. Put them together and there will never be a payoff in a life of the vehicle. Also, diesel in most of the Europe cheaper then gasoline. In Germany the difference in price is anywhere between 10% and 20%. On top of it the car consumes much less fuel (20-30%). Those numbers add up very quickly even for expensive car like BMW 7 or MB S class.Even rich Europeans don't like to waste money.
Another point: electric motor of a hybrid has huge torque advantage over gasoline engine, however diesel is rich in torque on it's own even at low rpm. There is no synergy to obtain by marrying those two.
dieselhead
What would make sense, it would seem, is a diesel with auto on/off at stops.
Dean
If you plan to keep the car for more than 5 years, there's only one choice: Diesel.
Show me a hybrid with 200,000 miles on it. Any good diesel will do twice that.
A hybrid? Doubtful.
Rex
Patrick - You make a good point. But in Urban and even Suburban area (especially during peak traffic hours, which in L.A. 5am - 8pm) the Hybrid still get better mileage. The only reason we have Hybrids now is due to Japanese Governmental involvement not California restrictions. If it wasn't for their Government neither Honda nor Toyota would have probably built these vehicles. Also I have seen Ads for Hybrid vehicle still in good working order with well over 200,000 miles. These vehicles have been on the road well over 15yrs. This means that they have paid for what ever premium over a similar vehicle. In the case of this Lexus model the person that purchase it probable cares more for something different than making some kind of environmental statement. Those willing to spend that much dough usually care about being different than anything else. I'm sure there is a way to improve the diesel engine and even the Hybrid engine. Maybe the Chevy Volt may someday be more than just Vaporware.
Abe
Rex, no hybrid vehicle has been on the road for more than 8 years. The Insight was introduced in 1999. Yet I see diesel VW's from the early 90's all the time...
Ducati Minor
"A hybrid? Doubtful."
Yet, Dean, diesel stations are not as common in the USA as they are in Europe and the British Isles. Do you really think 30 million consumers will choose to spend a premium for a diesel, uncertain of where a diesel supply station is during unplanned travel and stops, dealing with an unpleasant odor, and paying more per gallon than with petrol?
Hybrids may be more complex, but the technology hit public streets just a decade ago. It's a little premature to rule out something that emits less pollutants in metro driving (which most people do over highway travel) and produces superior fuel economy overall--the Euro Civic Hybrid versus Diesel being a fair example.
The diesel engine is inherently excellent in its design, with a simplified (though usually low in horsepower--which does count, guys) layout. But while diesel fuel is easier to refine, it requires more oil than petrol during production. Keep in mind America's use of supply & demand: diesel is already expensive. If, as Popular Mechanics predicts, diesel vehicle were to make up to 15% of passenger cars on the road (up from about 5% now) in the future, that would see a rise in cost per gallon for diesel fuel substantially.
Can we all just appreciate that there are multiple routes consuming less without condemning one or the other? If the diesel crowd keeps being this obnoxious and arrogant, diesel's P.R. in America will be as great as Larry Craig's.
Rip
All manufacturers will attempt various routes towards the same goal - better MPG. Toyota has effectively marketed the hybrid concept however in real world tests, other than their prius, the goal and results for their hybrid models has been more about additional hp than fuel efficiency. Take a look at their ads.
"This hybrid puts out over 300hp equivalent", etc. Then they tout that it will get in the mid-30's. Motor Trend took out the Highlander and drove it around town in what they labeled as moderate to aggressive driving while not breaking any speed limits (I don't know where each of you live but here in Colorado everyone is over the speed limit and everyone seems to be in a race to nowhere).
The results is that Motor Trend found that the Highlander was getting MPG in the teens on a vehicle that Toyota claimed was generating mid-30's. Other than the prius, Totyota has beem more about performance and marketing than about real efficiency.
Look at their position on CAFE, they are lobbying strenuously to prevent higher CAFE requirements while they are putting out all these performance vehicles. At the same time their CAFE equivalent performance in Europe is already in the mid-30MPG and on their home turf it is approaching 40MPG for the corp fleet.
So this whole debate will be about marketing appearances as much as it is about real efficiency. The Pres Council on Energy (2000) noted that real changes will only occur in America as we approach $5 per gallon for our fuel. The Council stated, that is the point when people will not only change but demand change.
According to the Council's estimates in 2000, we will see those prices as we approach 2010. Until then we should expect everyone to claim they are green but only small steps toward providing real choices for consumers.
Look at what $4 and $5 p/gal did for Europe and look at their 4 and 6 cylinder offerings - we'll get there when the cost goes up. We aren't a nation that prepares, we wait for the crisis and then throw billions at the solution.
Ducati Minor
"Toyota has effectively marketed the hybrid concept however in real world tests, other than their prius, the goal and results for their hybrid models has been more about additional hp than fuel efficiency. Take a look at their ads."
I care to dispute that. Consumer Reports rated the Camry Hybrid at 34 mpg in combined driving. No gasoline-powered small- or medium-size passenger car came close. The only cars that hovered in the area were the Toyota Yaris and Honda Fit. Edmunds averaged over 38 mpg in the mixed loop, as did MotorWeek.
Hideki
The LS600h is fearsomely sophisticated and very clever groundbreaking car, but also heavy, complex and totally unexciting/souless to drive. If you want to be bored to death, buy the Lexus.
The economical/environment argument for the LS is solid around town but on the highway, all the hybrid part is useless junk that has to be carted around.
One point often overlooked is the fact the LS600h can run in pure silent ZEV mode, using just battery power and automatically shuts down at traffic lights. No diesel can match that.
But the other points about long term reliablity - and resale with the trade still wary about hybrids, generally - are valid. For driver appeal, the soft riding, heavy, mushy, uninvolving Lexus scores pretty close to zero, although it is spectacularly refined.
For saving the planet, it's part of the answer and shows to the world that "you care" or want to be seen to be caring. This last bit is really what's selling the car.
Oh, and hybrids have been on the road for 10 years. The first Toyota Prius launched in Japan in 1997.
fantasyfreddy
how about tests done for American speeds??
i'm sure diesel hybrid is coming soon... and hopefully Veggie oil..
Best solution would be straight plug in, if we switch our grid to wind and solar and other such solutions!! Coal and nukes don't cut it any more!
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